Shrinathji's pragatya
Topic: http://www.pushtikul.com/link.asp?TOPIC_ID=1935
Topic author: Shyamrai
Subject: Shrinathji's pragatya
Posted on: 17 September 2007 16:27:18
Message:
I have a question regarding the pragatya of Shrinathji, there is some conflicting stories on the net from the gaudiya vaishnavs.
They claim that Shrinathji was discovered and first worshipped by Madhvendra Puri on Shri Giriraji in 1479.
We acknowledge that SM wasnt the first to do seva and it was the vrajvasi's but that SM was the first to offer proper seva. In our tradition we believe the seva was given to MP by SM as a guru dakshina.
The gaudiyas also claim that SM didnt do seva of Shrinathji and that the seva was given direct to Shri Vithalnathji by Raghunath das a devotee of Chaitanya. This is obviously not true because all vaishnav scholars regard the Madhurashtakam as genius and it wouldnt have happened if SM hadnt done Shriji's seva.
In our tradition we do acknowledge that after the building of the temple the guadiyas were put in charge and that SV asked them to leave in place of some Gujarati Brahmins. RD lived from 1494-1583 so is is plausable that he was the bengali vaishnav put in charge and then asked to leave. They claim that SV took the temple and seva with force by setting the gaudiya houses on fire and when they went to put them out they were not allowed back in the temple.
My question is about the historical truth of Shrinathji's pragatya and what evidence is there of times and places because even the place of the pragatiya is disputed. If there is more evidence for our tradtion then i'm sure we can get the gaudiya tradition to ackowledge the truth even if it means going to court to protect our heritage from the lies and the derogatory statements they make about our tradtion and founder SM.
Are there any vaishnavs that have studied both traditions to establish the historical truth???
Edited by - Shyamrai on 17 September 2007 16:47:06
Edited by - Shyamrai on 17 September 2007 18:01:30
Reply author: shreekant22
Date: 19 September 2007 15:01:04
Message:
Jai Shree Krishna
The vrajvasis did not do seva, but only offered samagri to the pragatya swaroop of Shree Govardhan dharan.
Shree Mahaprabhuji, after the pratham milan with Shreeji bawa, upon the request of Shree Thakorji himself, esablished the seva Prakar of Shreenathji. The Vrajvasis, were reluctant to take the responcibilit of seva, and hence the bengali brahmins (Not necesarily the Gaudiyas) were appointed to carry out the seva of ShreeThakorji.
However, as they started worshipping their devi too side by side Shree Govardhannathji, Shree Krishnadas adhikariji removed them form seva.
The Gaudiyas are the followers of Shree Chaitanya prabhu.
The biggest fact that Shree Govardhannathji himself wished to be worshipped as Pushtiswaroop can be understood form the fact the Prabhu himself anounced his arrival atop Shree Girirajji to Shree Mahaprabhuji. Shree Thakorji and Shree Mahaprabhuji embraced each other through mutual two sided advancements. And the fact that Shree Thakorji himself has done innumerable leelas with the Vallabh vanshaj, the ashtasakhas, and many Bhagwadiyas is in itself proof enough to show that it was devine wish and nobody played politics.
Shree Prabhu is Kartum, Akartum and Anyatha kartum, he decides what, whom, where, when etc. not anybody else.
Reply author: Shyamrai
Date: 19 September 2007 17:13:30
Message:
I understand that Shri Thakorji chose the pushti path to worship him but the Gaudiyas say that Madhvendra Puri discovered Shrinathji in 1479 and established his seva...the date is consistant with the pragatya of Shri Mahaprabhuji and the appeareance of Shrinathji's mukharvinda so there maybe some truth in their claim. In our history i have read that Madhvendra puri taught SM at an early age so this would have been around 1485 so SM couldn't have told Madhvendra puri to go to vraj to establish the seva because MP would have already established it.
Madhvendra Puri went into lila in 1491.
In 1493 is when SM came to Vraj to formally install the worship of Shrinathji. In our tradition it says the temple of Shrinathji was built between 1499 - 1519 then MP was put into seva by SM.
http://pushtisampraday.tripod.com/three.html
This would not have been possible.
The bengali vaishnavs must refer to Raghunathdas Goswami who was asked to leave by Shri Vithalnathji in around 1540 after taking over the gadi from Shri Gopinathji.
There is an definate discrepency there. I dont mean to argue but i am looking at it from a historical point of view rather than a religious one.
The gaudiyas do make some outragous claims however. They claim SM came to Chaitanya at Nilacala and took diksa in Kisora-Gopala mantra from Gadadhara pandita. This i find hard to believe purely from a historical and factual perspective. SM was one of the most celebrated scholars of his time, respected all over india with his own philosophy. Why would he have to take any diksha's from someone else from another vaishnav sect?? The gaudiyas make many claims and because of ISKCON their claims are reaching far and wide. We as followers of Shri Mahaprabhuji need to counter these claims and use historical fact to do so. This is the reason for my asking of the questions.
Edited by - Shyamrai on 19 September 2007 20:51:05
Reply author: manish1
Date: 20 September 2007 18:03:36
Message:
Jai Shri Krishna ShyamRaiji,
you have raised a very imp topic and that has come to my mind many times. Even places like Wikipedia etc. have their side of the story.
u have well researched the dates, but few imp points here.
they consider Chaitanya Charitamrta (CC) to be their most imp book and last word.
We consider 84 Vaishnav Varta (84VV) as most imp pushti book.
both have totally different accounts, but few points from a semi neutral point.
Shrinathji Seva is has been done and still belongs to Vallabhkul, that itself says a lot... whose tradition seva belongs to. plus their other deities like Shri RadhaGopinathji and other imp. deities are still worshipped in Jaipur. I find it hard to believe that they would have given the Swaroop of Shrinathji to SM and then not taken back.
They have much lesser details which you have placed here. But it our 84VV and also Shrinathji Pragatya varta there are much more detailed accounts.
According to Gaudiya Math (GM) and CC, even Shri Mahaprabhuji was proud over Shri Subodhiniji. But bear in mind, every Sampradaya according to them has come from GM either directly or indirectly.
I guess there must be more historicals details, but that perhaps some Jeje might only be able to provide.
The most imp. thing as Shreekantji said in earlier post, we should first ourselves among Pushtimargis spread more knowledge about Shri Mahaprabuji and Shrinathji and these things will be taken care as a result of that..
Reply author: Shyamrai
Date: 20 September 2007 20:02:23
Message:
Very good point Manishbhai, the GM do believe that everything has come from them in some way or another. Even the sampradayas that long preceded them.
My problem with them is the lack of respect shown towards Shri Vallabh. They commonly call him just Vallabh Bhatt rather than Vallabhacharya and they dont seem to acknowledge the fact that SM is one of the 5 great acharyas of indian history. They always mention, Shankracharya, Ramanujacharya, Nimbarkacharya and Madhavacharya and when it come to the Rudra vaishnav line they just say Vishnu Swami and hardly mention SM at all.
In CC they say that SM was very proud of his works and that Chaitanya was not impressed and would only except the works of Sridhara Swami. SM wrote his Subdhaniji because Sridhara's account was written 'due to circusmtance' both SM and the GM acknowledge this. Sridhara's account was written with too many hidden meanings because he was scared of the muslims of the time so could not make his meanings clear. SM had to explain the true meanings in clear language for all to understand.
They claim that the seva was given to SV by Ragunathdas but who in their right mind would give away The Supreme Lord to someone else?!?! I find it hard that they would've given the swaroop away in the first place let alone ask for it back so i fully agree with your point manishbhai. I think our account is far more true with the fact there were not many Pushti Vaishnavs capable of doing temple seva at the time so it is fully plausable to give the seva to established bengalis and to have a Pushti Vaishnav as temple manager.
I agree that our varta's Shri Gokulnathji has written are far more concise but as you said there are these different accounts which should be studied.
Are there any independant texts confirming when MP went to vraj and when he left this world? That seems to be the sticking point and the cause of the different accounts.
Reply author: manish1
Date: 21 September 2007 07:57:37
Message:
Jai Shri Krishna,
i have lived near a ISKCON temple for over 3 years and have many many friends from there.
few new vaishnavs from there might have the hardline and thus dont know abt other vaishnav acharyas.
what they think about Shri Mahaprabuji or Shrinathji Bawa makes no difference, as long as we know our side clearly. if asked about it I tell them this what our book says and rather than having the final word on these touchy topics.
if you follow Shri Chaitanya Maharapbhu orders and we follow Shri Mahaprabuji aagya, both will benefit more.
first we should know Shri Vallabh. Not only ISKCON, but many other people dont even know about Shri Mahaprabhuji, but thats perhaps bcoz even young pushtimargis dont know that...
we also call Shri Chaitanya Maharapbhu, only as Krishna Chaitanya, so no point telling all of them are like this. I have seen some senior devotees there, do not mind as long as we do our krishna seva.
Reply author: govindshah2
Date: 21 September 2007 10:57:57
Message:
ShriGokulesho Jayati
Its really a surprising by Shyamrai that you are atleast not able to honour ShriMahaprabhuji. U r using SM in place of ShriMahaprabhuji. I request that Please do use ShriMahaprabhuji as a full name and not the abbrevations. Hum to pushtimarg ko itna short karna chahte hai ki ShriMahaprabhuji ka naam likhne mein aalasya aati hai?
What should we understand by GM, SM, kya hai yeh? Bhaiya koi vishay post karte ho to usko sahi arth mein post karo. And you Manishji u also using CC, 84 VV, what is this? Respect the values. If u had no time to write this words in full, then don't give coments.
And yes, for knowing the Pragatya Vaarta of ShriMahaprabhuji, we can take the reference of VISHODHANIKA pustaks which is been published in 3 parts by Goswami ShriShyam Manoharji (Parle, Kishangarh).
And Mr. PRO Shreekantbhai, you all r getting ready to remove the persons, But u being a PRO, can't u just view through this points....
Reply author: govindshah2
Date: 21 September 2007 11:07:36
Message:
ShriGokulesho Jayati
Neither Shrinathji was discovered by Madhvendra puri, Nor any Vrajvasis like Sadupandey, etc. This is not the voyage of Columbus that he discovered America. And Shyamraiji if u belong to ShriKrishna Chaitanya's Parampara, of the Gaudiya Sampraday, then i think this is not the right place for u to pracitice ShriKrishna bhakti. Because this place is of ShriMahaprabhuji and the sampraday is PushtiBhaktimarg.
During the times of ShriMahaprabhuji, Shrinathji bavashri became the only worshipped Lord by Pushtimargiyas. and the Ancestors of Shrimahaprabhuji. History says that Shrimahaprabhuji was only LIABLE to perform shrinathji's seva. And no others. After that with the permissoin of ShriMahaprabhuji, seva was allowed to do by bengalis (devi Bhakts) but only with permission of shrimahaprabhuji, and not independently. Then after this seva was carried forward by only the ancestor of ShriMahaprabhuji. And no other sampraday acharyas were allowed to perform seva of shrinathji bavashri.
Reply author: shreekant22
Date: 21 September 2007 19:02:17
Message:
Jai Shree Krishna
Param bhagvadiya shree Govind bhai, I would like to clarify that we have not removed anybody form this site. Those who left the sight did so on their own free will. This was veryclearly stated by them in this very forum on one of the topics.
As regards to using the words SM, GM etc. yes personally I would never do and have never done such a thing, and do not approve of it. But that does not mean that I can stop anybody from doing such a thing. Many in this site use JSK instead of Jai Shree Krishna, which too I strongly disapprove of. The reason why I did not raise objection to Shree Shyam bhais usage of such 2 letter representations is that if JSK can be allowed then how can GM, SM etc. be stopped ?
And sice I was holding a responcible position as PRO of the site, I wanted to take some more time to first think it over in detail then post my views.
Reply author: Shyamrai
Date: 22 September 2007 14:16:47
Message:
I apologise if the use of abrreveations has annoyed people. I did it not out of disrespect but purely for speed of typing. As for am i a gaudiya vaishnav...no...i had my bramsabandh in front of Shrinathji by Shri Dauji Maharaj the former tilkiyat. If you had read my posts clearly it would have been clear.
The reason why i asked the question was because i look at religion in a way where i am not blinckered by just faith and following everything i am told blindly. Much like many of the young vaishnavs today we ask questions and want answers based in facts.
I know over time stories are changed and biased opinions given. I asked the questions to establish a historical truth. There are 2 accounts given for the same story so obviously something is not right so i dont see a problem in asking the question.
The reason i asked is because if there are other vaishnavs who have studied this i would be interested in hearing their opinions. This is a forum for what i believed was free exchange of ideas. Not a forum for just one idea and one way of thinking.
Edited by - Shyamrai on 22 September 2007 14:23:14
Reply author: shreekant22
Date: 22 September 2007 20:31:39
Message:
Jai Shree Krishna
Shyamraiji, we truely appreciate your apology and sincerity.
Wish you all the best of Satsang at Pushtikul.com.
PRO, Pushtikul.com
Reply author: Bhagwat
Date: 01 October 2007 23:08:28
Message:
JSK !
What are we fighting for ?
Use of abriviations and who said what, when, in which book ?
Wow !!
Is this what we need to do in 2007 !!??
There is a saying in Guajarati - if dogs are barking at an Elephant, he doesn't go to chase them off !
We can't be bothered to fight the claims of all the idiots who think they are better than us ! Who will we goto court with next ? Muslims and Christians too ?
Yes - we should make sure our version of the Truth is out there for people to google / find / research. But to go to court for that would be an excessive waste of everyone's time and money - and for very little gain. People don't change their views just because of a court judgement ! Kids in playgrounds the world over say, "my mother is better than your mother." That does not mean you try and "prove" such things ! Its too childish to even contemplate !
If you really want to research "facts", look at the court documents of the Mughal era. The case of Gaudiaswas being thrown out of seva reached the Mathura court and when they failed there, later the court of the Raja of the area. It just so happened that Raja Birbal happened to be a Pushti sevak and upheld the rights of Shri Vitthal to do appoint who he chooses as temple servants in his temples. This is all there in the vartas. If anyone wants to look at the archive of the court papers and research them, I am sure they will make an interesting read. There is a vast amount of research in this field if anyone is willing to put time and money into it. Indian history is one of the most well documented in the world. Yet, its the least researched !! Sad, but true.
As to abriviations - please ! If you want to encourage youngsters on to the site, you can't tell them not to use the txt language ! They will be turned off by such suggestions and the site will than be the exclusive reserve of those who insist on communicating in the most formal of terms only ! That is exactly what has made youngsters turn away from our sect in the past - too much formality ! and you now want to introduce that on the web !?!?!
If disrespect was meant, it would have been evident in the writing - I see no such evidence. The vaishnavs, especially the young ones, are asking great questions, lets not discourage them with such frivolous rules. Let Pushti Raas flow from all, in which ever way its convenient for them to communicate it. Don't stiffle it !!
JSK,
Bhagwat
Reply author: Shyamrai
Date: 03 October 2007 15:58:40
Message:
Thank you for seeing my point off view regarding the youth and the use of abbreviations.
In regards to my original question i also thank you. I feel that we can get somewhere with this topic now. I never realised that the case reached the Mathura court and there is documented history. I understand that some of the things Shri Gokulnathji did are recorded in Agra but didnt realise there was other documentation to support our marg. This should be researched thourghly by vaishnavs and will most definately make for interesting reading. I am going to India in december but only for 12 days so i doubt i will get a chance to go but if there are any vaishnavs on here who could go and investigate for us all and get copies of texts it would be much appreciated.
As for taking ISCKON to court....true...very unrealistic but we should put our side across more and make it more readily available.
Reply author: Bhagwat
Date: 03 October 2007 20:17:55
Message:
JSK,
If you read the 84 Vaishnav and 252 Vaishnav vartas openly, and analyse them rationally / independently, you would be truly be fascinated by the social and political dynamics of the times. There are references to court cases, legal challenges, land grants, royal proclamations etc. All of these can be verified by primary sources.
India at the time of Shri Vallabh was in a flux and things were changing rapidly. During Shri GopiNathji's times, things began to calm down and during Shri Vitthalnathji's time, there was a great flowering of culture under the Mogul emperor Akber. The lives of vaishnavs in the vartas reflects these changing times. Most of these facts can be established independently as they specify names, places of people in the vartas. Court chronicals, land registry papers, law court papers of the period can verify all these facts for you. Granted, some of these may no longer be available, but, careful research may unearth an amazing amount of info.
As you are going to India, take the opportunity to research about your own family and what it was doing at the time of Shri Vallabh. If you are going to a place like Mathura or Kashi, ask your family priest / panda to see if he can go back to your root and how far. Pandas keep vast records of our ancestors for us and have details such as family members who undertook the pilgrimage at that time, occupation, etc. There would even be a signature or a thumb print of your ancestors along with the records ! Imagine, seeing the thumbprint of your great, great grandfather in person ! There is a BBC series - Who Do You Think You Are - they would die for such records. India has records most nations would envy. Sadly, most are neglected.
From this trip, see if you may discover what your family was doing in the 1500s and when your family came into the Pushti fold, what was the economic situation of your ancestors at various periods when they came to the pilgrimage site and for what purpose (for yatra or pinda or tarpan etc).
Shri GopiNthaji was a great leader of our sect.
Sadly, as his descendants did not succeed in carrying on the sect, the descendants of Shri Vitthalnathji who took over the mantel, have slurred his name where possible have belittled his contribution to the sect. Most of his literary works have been lost due to neglect. SadhanDipika is the only surviving text to have any general circulation.
http://www.geocities.com/pushti_marg/gopinathji.htm
Shri GokulNathji was a great man and his faith was absolute in the Lord. When all other Gosawamis fled Vraj under the tyrant Shah Jahan and Aurangzeb, Shri GokulNathji stayed put. Indeed, his faith and boldness helped save many Hindus in the region. He even debated with the rulers of Dehli and there would be court records of that somewhere.
Indian history is worthy of research - if anyone has the time and money to spare. Sadly, most of these documents gather dust in archives, unseen by any researcher.
Indeed, the court archives of the Rajput and Mogul courts of the time would give you a fascinating picture of what was happening in India in general and Pushti Marg in particular. Much of what we take for granted as culture of Pushti Marg is derived from that time, including clothes, food and jewellery offered to the Lord.
http://www.geocities.com/pushti_marg/raag-b-s.htm
JSK,
B
Reply author: govindshah2
Date: 04 October 2007 09:04:48
Message:
Jai Jai ShriGokulesh
Bhagwatji, you had quoted this for ShriDadaji and really it is very much true that ShriDadaji single handedly fought against the a-siddhant And kept the siddhant by saving shrimala-tilak.
quote:
Shri GokulNathji was a great man and his faith was absolute in the Lord. When all other Gosawamis fled Vraj under the tyrant Shah Jahan and Aurangzeb, Shri GokulNathji stayed put. Indeed, his faith and boldness helped save many Hindus in the region. He even debated with the rulers of Dehli and there would be court records of that somewhere.
I will interrupt here. I had made the bold words in red ink, of ur quote. ShriDadaji ShriGokulesh is not was, but even He is today Prakat Biraajman at Shrimad Gokul's Badi baithak of shriGokulnathji in ShriGokulnathji's temple. So pls don't use the past tense for ShriGokulnathji. Moreover He is a great man. NO, He is beyond man, He is Bhagwad Swaroop. So Please if u use any Saptacharya's name, then don't write Man. I know that u r a very learned person, But pls do keep this Vivek that whenever ShriMahaprabhuji, ShriUbhay Prabhucharans-ShriGopinathji, ShriVitthalnathPrabhucharan and the Saptacharyas, they cannot be interpreted as Man, but as Bhagwat swaroops. Yehi tehi tehi yehi kachu naahi sandeeh.......
So this is just for notifying. I think u will accept it in positive sense.
Reply author: Bhagwat
Date: 04 October 2007 17:23:09
Message:
JSK Govindji,
I understand your sentiments and appreciate your Guru-bhakti.
But, if you want to appeal to the rationally thinking, modern youth, you have to say things as they are. Too much defference and formality turns the youngsters off.
Having been raised in the modern world, they can't take us seriously when we ask them to treat human beings as living God. They feel that's a very illogical and old-fashioned.
Give them rational, logical reasons as to why they should respect that person, and they will. Ask them to respect just because they are born in such a such a family, and they will be turned off immediately.
What would you rather have ? Youngsters on-board - interested in our sect or out of here, getting interested in other sects ? One of the reasons I write the way I do, is to appeal to the youngsters of our community. They are our future vaishnavs.
From Sanskrit, Shri Vallabh and his sons translated our texts to Vrajbhasha. As time required, we translated these to Hindi, Gujarati, Punjabi, Sindhi etc. Now, time demands we translate them to English. Not just litterally, but also figuartively. Just as words, if translated verbatim, from one language to another make no sense due to grammer etc, nor will ideas, if translated verbatim, make sense. You have to put them in modern context for our children to understand them.
Shri Vallabh was brave enough to say, several times, that he was human. We read this even in Shodash Grantha - eg Antah Karan Prabodha - http://www.geocities.com/pushti_marg/antakaran-p.htm
Let us be brave enough to accept him at his word and live in awe of his achievements.
http://www.geocities.com/pushti_marg/my-Shri-Vallabh.htm
Yours, most humbly,
Bhagwat
Reply author: Shyamrai
Date: 04 October 2007 17:24:18
Message:
I just read a website about Shri Jagatnath Puri. It said that Shri Mathuresh Bawa did Bhagwat katha there and to honour his visit the state museum of Orissa gave him copies of 500 year old documents from their library relating to Shri Gopinathji's visit there. Are there any sevaks off Shri Mathureshji that can find out what the documents said or better yet get a copy. Thank you.
Regarding calling Shri Gokulnathji human and a man...i can see how it can been seen as disrespectful and offensive. But i agree, the youth off today cant relate to men being Gods and you have to talk to them on a certain level in the hope they begin to show an interest in our marg and begin to read our scriptures and develop bhakti for themselves.
I was speaking to a Betiji recently who was very straight forward. She said the only thing that makes her different from everyone else is that she can touch the Swaroop of Shrinathji and do His seva, otherwise she is the same as any other vaishnav. I think this attitude gains a lot of respect from the youth of today.
The youth in Pushtimarg in England especially seem to be very disillusioned with the faith for some reason. Any time any manoraths are done or satsangs held, the young people turn up purely because they have to give their grandmother a lift. This is a very poor state of affairs.
Edited by - Shyamrai on 04 October 2007 18:16:07
Reply author: Shyamrai
Date: 04 October 2007 17:46:26
Message:
I guess our Tilkiyat Maharajshri has put the record straight and offers a very plausible and scholarly view on the disagreement between the gaudiyas and ourselves.
http://www.nathdwara.in/shree_vithalnathji3.php?PHPSESSID=87628fe562ffd08ebc98c6177c5eb967
I wonder if Bawashri has been seeing our posts ;o)
Reply author: shreekant22
Date: 04 October 2007 20:01:30
Message:
Jai Shree Krishna
In fact to ask the present generation to look at Shree Vallahb vanshaj as God is in itself wrong. I have struggled with this issue myself in trying to make my own children understand the very same notion.
But when made them realise that in them we do not see their physical form but the form of Shree Mahaprabhuji himself, and if made them realize the thrivid forms of anything as explained by Shree Mahaprabhuji himself that of Adhibhautik, adhyatmik and adhidaivik, then the children themselves develop reverence towards the Vallabhkul balaks.
In trying to justify that JSK, SM, SV, SG etc. as the need of the hour and that is this is not accepted, then the present generation will not come in to the fold of Pushtimarg as an argument is very difficult to digest. What else will we dilute - we have already started rampantly building havelis, sacrificing Gruha seva, We have already stopped putting Tilak on our foreheads - A sign for which Shree Gokulnathji traveled at age of 75 to kashmir to meet the Emperor, We hurriedly today take brahmasamband, commiting our everything to Shree Prabhu and then conveniently forget the act, and shamelessly lead ourlives indulging in Anyashray, asamarpit, ashadlaap and duhsang, and many many more acts.
What all will we change to suit our own needs and lifestyles?
Shree Mahaprabhuji when he said that he is human, showed his greatness by saying so. But we as Vaishnavs will we start calling him a man ?
Is this what we have learnt from the Sarvoattam stotra ?
This our sad state today.
We our looking at personal conveniences, personal reactions, and what will appeal to the followers of this marg.
Is this Pushtimarg then ?
To the best of my knowledge, There is only one thought that true follower of Pushtimarg should have that of Shree Thakorji, and in doing so, (it is needless to say that Shree Vallabh and the entire Vallabhkul becomes a part of this thought as without their grace, one cannot make his first move in his efforts to seek Shree Thakorjis Anugraha) he sould always and for ever think only of the sukh of Shree Prabhu and nothing else, not his own conveniences.
Teaching our Youger generations to respect the Vallabhkul by always refering to them in Proper form is one such step towards this.
If not the day is not far off when the Shree Govardhannathji will becmore SGN. and one can imagine the two letter representations that may be given to the sapthaswaroopas.
Remember, Pushtimarg is not a book of chemistry and the Vallabhkul not mere elements like Copper (Cu), Pottassium (P), etc. etc.
If the Shodashgranthas, 84 / 252 vartahs are reprsent and highlight the Siddhants of the Marg, then the Valabhkul represent the veary form of Shree Mahaprabhuji himself. If we are unable to realise their Aadhidaivik swaroopa then the fault is in us, in the very same manner as we are unable to feel and experience the Nitya leelas of Shree Thakurji. If today the swaroopa biraajmaan at our homes does not talk or play with us it doea not mean that the Thakorji is non-existant, it only means we do not have the ability to experience his presence.
If today the younger generation is not knowing/following the finer nuances of the marg, then let us make them understand the same and make them follow it, rather than diluting the essentials for the sake of convenience.
Please Please Please, I appeal to all of you with folded hands to stop this nonsense of JSK, SV, etc, and be proud enough to repectfully use Jai Shree Krishna, Shree Mahaprabhuji, Pramadayal Shree Gusainji, and so on.
This is my humble request to all of you.
Jai Shree Krishna
Reply author: Bhagwat
Date: 04 October 2007 22:36:56
Message:
Jai Shri Krushna,
Sure, we can enforce it that the messages can not have any abbriviations.
We can even enforce that due honorific titles and formalities are adhered to in full, with reference to Vallabh-kul and blalaks, in all communications on this site.
What will happen is, youngsters will stop writing on the site !
What difference does it make if I say JSK or Jai Shri Krushna in full in the virtual world of internet ? Is the message any less important because of the abbreviation ? Do I not read "Jai Shri Krushna" in JSK ? If I have to type out every world correctly, it will take me lot longer to communicate and the youngsters of today are unwilling to do that. They want to communicate with speed. Their emails and text messages show this all the time !
Personally, there are bigger battle to be fought than on use of JSK or "Jai Shri Krushna". We have to make sure our children appreciate and understand our religion and philosophy. How is not half as important as NOW ! This is especially true in UK, USA, Africa but also in all the big cities of India where the kids have little or no affinity for Hinduism or its culture. If we want to keep them interested, we have to talk their language, otherwise, our voices will be lost in cyber space.
Indeed, it is through the medium of the internet that vaishnavs around the world can communicate so speedily and I have the pleasure of talking to you all ! If we put restrictions on these, we will loose what lucidity we have on-line.
We can stop people writing in specific formats.
But we can't stop time.
Things are changing and the way people communicate is one the primary changes.
You can't stop children from communicating the way they do. By introducing rules, you will end up restricting their access to sites like this. In my humble view, that would be a disaster for the sect.
As moderators of the site, you decide, but, if you decide to be orthodox, and strict on such rules, you will loose the youngsters you have at present.
Yours,
B
Reply author: shreekant22
Date: 05 October 2007 09:09:06
Message:
Jai Shree Krishna
It is important as to how one percieves it.
These are not restrictions. These are the needs. And this fact ought to be highlighted to the younger generations, and I am sure that they will definetly follow it if explained and made to realise this fact.
If the younger generation today is not into teh fold of Pushtimarg, or the Sanatan Hindu dharma for that matter, it is because we have not got them into doing so. The need for Satsang at every home on a day to day basis is not practised at all. We are failing in inculcating the enlightening the younger generatons about the Marg and its principles - and one of the simple reason for that is we ourselves do not follow them, so how can we preach that which we do not practice ?
The need of the our is not abreviations - the need of the our is a sincere attempt in understanding the basics of the marg, its siddhant first by ourselves, and then to pass on the same in its right perspective to the next generation. To do this we have to change ourselves fist, instead living with the single ome point programme of wealth amassing and living a life of leasure, we have first balance our own lives, put the breaks on, analyse if this what was/is preached by our Acharya? Is this the Gopi bhaav ?
If we start living a balanced life of Seva, smaran and sampatti, then our children too will understand the same and follow it.
Time is running out in this world. But the world we are trying to reach out to is Nitya, beyond time itself. So do not let time fool you, and drag you with it - If our dhrudta is unflinching, then Shree Thakorji will relieave us of this so called time bound living and bless us with experiences that are beyond the limits of time.
My humble request to all the members of the site is to avoid the use of abreviations atleast while refering to Shree Thakorji, Shree Mahaprabhuji and his lineage.
This not being orthadox, this a reflection of our humbleness to them. one of very first pre-requisites of this marg is humbleness...
Agar hum jhuk nahi sakthe to hame Charankamal dikh nahi sakthe.
Jab Charankamal ke darshan nahi to daas ki daasavta kahan rahi ?
Hope my beloved friends of this site will accept this humble request and adhere to it.
Please do remember, this is not a rule being imposed at pushtikul.com but a sincere request to one and all to frame this simple self-made rule upon one-self and adhere to it.
We can keep arguing about it. But the point here is that can we or can we not ?
My simple request is....
If we can, then why not ?
Reply author: Bhagwat
Date: 05 October 2007 15:17:33
Message:
JSK,
I am telling you things as they are - not as they should / could be.
Ask the youngsters why they don't attend satsangs or read the plethora of magazines that are being produced by the sect leaders - too much "formality" and use of archaic words they don't understand. We do not talk the "language" they can understand. If you want them to come, you have to change, not they. Choice is yours.
As to why I have a copy right symbol - I don't want anyone to feel that I am speaking on behalf of any organisation or group in my articales. By using the symbol, I am clearly stating that these are my views and are hence personal to me. No one should point fingers at the sect or any satsang mandal I attend as a result of what they have read on the site.
I give credit where credit is due. If any vaishnav has contributed an article on the site, I put their name with it. If anyone sends in a picture, I put their name as the sender. Often enough, on other Pushti Marg sites, I see the same courtesy is not given to material from my site and as a result, I have had to use the copy right symbol.
As to modernisation of clothes - please analyse the wardrobe of Shri Nathji and tell me how much of that corresponds to Sarasvat kalpa ? Have you ever read of Shri Krushna wearing gherdar jama or chakadar jama or suthana, or any of the other things in Shri Maad Bhagvatam ? Much of what we consider as "Pushti culture" was the modern haute couture of Shri Gausaiji's time. Shri Gausaiji was brave enough to modernise to appeal to the masses by changing from dhoti upparna of Shri Vallabh's time to Chakadar jama of his own period.
Please don't misunderstand me - I am not saying we should dress Shri Nathji or our Thakorji in Versace or Gucci suits. I am saying however, that we need to develop methods and means of communications that find resonance with the youth and society of today. If we don't we will be left behind as a fossil, a relic of bygone age. Shri Vallabh and Shri Gausaiji reformed the old systems to appeal to their current social, economical and political realities of their times. We need to be brave enough to do the same.
Yours,
B
Reply author: Bhagwat
Date: 05 October 2007 15:41:07
Message:
JSK,
BTW Govindji, for your information, the very first page of the website has the following -
Welcome to the Haveli, ie the palace/ mansion, of ShriNathji. This site is dedicated to Pushti Marg, the Path of (Divine) Grace, as envisioned by H.H. Shri Vallabhacharyaji, who is the source of inspiration for this site.
With the grace of God, this site came about in the autumn 1996 and has since hosted millions of visitors, far exceeding any expectations of ours!!! We would like to thank you for your interest and Jai Shri Krushna (JSK) to you all.
Several Goswamies, including Shri Mathureshwarji, H.H. Indira betiji and PritiRaja betiji have expressed an interest in the site and have generously contributed their support for the site. Several of these are happy to communicate via email with anyone interested to know more about Pushti Marg.
HH Shri RaghuNathlalji has also been very generous and has given full permission to publish extracts from his PhD thesis on the site. Param bhagvadiya Shri Shyamdasji has given kind permission to publish his articles and extracts from his books.
Please note, I have given full credit to Shri Vallabh and Shri Hari for this site, along with due thanks to Goswami Balaks, Betijis, my Guru and other vaishnavs. My name is right at the bottom and only than as someone who can be contacted for more information on the site.
Reply author: friendmonu
Date: 06 October 2007 22:04:14
Message:
Jai Shree Krishna!!!
Had read the topic n seems that leaving d core of topic the conversation is goin on such points tht don't value so much... then in tht new imaginations r cuming ... especially
Tomorrow u will say that the new generation is not ready to see shrimahaprabhuji's chitraji in the Dhoti-Uperna, and wanted ShriMahaprabbuji to see in Chaddi-Baniyan..... How can we consider your statement. Pushtimarg is not a fashion, Pushtimarg is a lifestyle of INdian Culture. So let the youngsters learn Pushtimarg in its old tradition way only. May be the old cultured, But is the true culture.
I don't think such thing has been said by anyone everyone knowz whtz just n fine n shuld b said n done...... so is there any meaning in raising such issue n talking on it???
If respect is by heart n true then itz not to b shown off to others... coz the one whom u respect does knowz it well,, correct no??? Coz if u have to tell n show it to others then I think itz just flash n not by heart
N here itz for our Thakurji n Shri Vallabhkul (WHO R VERY DEAR TO TRUE VASIHNAVS) so everyone has ones extent of relation with Them as per ones closeness n d krupa of Thakurji n Shri Vallabhkul, So evryone do know in wht way n how much to respect correct no...
As per time scriptures have changed from Sanskrit n Vrajbhasha to Hindi, Marathi, Gujrati, English as per ease to understand them... but the core, teachings, meaning of the scripture has not changed no??? Then y this topic is being dragged like this??? With language the way of presentation may seem different but meaning doesnt no......
N r we gonna to recall all previous incidences on site evrytime in new topics::
And Mr. PRO Shreekantbhai, you all r getting ready to remove the persons, But u being a PRO, can't u just view through this points....
The Administartion body of site does knows wht has happened, why n wht shuld they do......
I don't thing I'm wrong in sayin this all....... I request all the very learned, Param Bhagwadiya n true Vaishnavs to pls stop this type of postings in this beautiful n spritual site which is meant for some very meaningful purpose n shuld try to emphasis n highlight for a healthy Satsang that shall really b a true n real respect towards Shri Thakurji n Shri Vallabhkul coz wht They will like is tht Their beloved Vaishnavs having very healthy conversation on the preachings of marg n Their leelas..... And not pulling each others leg n cing dosh of others or trying to pinpoint those mistakes... The 252/84 Vartas does say this no......
Reply author: shreekant22
Date: 07 October 2007 14:43:49
Message:
Jai Shree Krishna
Good Observations Monicaji.
Dear Vaishnavs,
It is frankly because of these very reasons that I had overlooked the abreviations made by PB Shree Shyamraiji in the begining, and proposed to take up the issue with him direlty, if the need arose.
However, when the topic went continued, and went to an extant that abreviations were the in thing today, and they ought to be accepted and adopted, it became too much to digest. Foreone who is moving towards the siddhants of Shree Vallabh, and trying to live by them, the present scenario of our marg is an issue to close too the heart, and what one sees on a day to day basis of sweeping changes being made to suit our own needs and comforts, it becomes too much to bear.
Hence it becomes necessary to put things under proper perspective and play the role of a speed breaker to the ever propelling, fast moving pointless changes being incorporated in the name of Pushtimarg and its ideologies.
I am of the firm opinion that if one wants to get into to the fold of the marg, he should do so by following it properly, in the name of propogation and making the marg acceptable to others, to dilute it is not acceptable, and to me refering to Shree Mahaprabhuji through abreviations is most certainly a dilution.
We should always remember thsi fact that while Pushtimarg is for everyone, not everyone is for Pushtimarg.
So follow Pushtimarg,
There is no need to make it PUSH-IT marg by accepting and adopting unthinkable measures to the liking of Anybody /Everybody.
Reply author: Shyamrai
Date: 07 October 2007 18:48:37
Message:
Once again i apologise for the use of abbrevaiations. My thinking was not only for speed of typing but also when people read JSK for example they do not read J.S.K but in their head they read it as Jai Shri Krishna so as Monica was saying the meaning is still the same.
Coming back to my original point regarding Shrinathji's Pragatya. Has anyone been to the place in Vraj. I am told it is in Anyor near Shri Giriraji and there is a small mandir there but last time i went to Vraj i was told by our gour that the place of pragatya was on top of Shri Giriraj itself near the mandir and was shown a totally different place.
Also i would like to be clear about the 2 mandirs on Shri Giriraj. One is Purnimals mandir which Shri Thakorji resides in at the moment with Shri Mahaprabhuji's bhaitakji i believe. What is the other mandir which is almost derelict next to it??
If someone can clear that up for me it would be much appreciated. Thank you
Edited by - Shyamrai on 07 October 2007 20:25:30
Reply author: shreekant22
Date: 19 October 2007 16:52:33
Message:
Jai Shree Krishna
Anyor is the place were the house of Sadhu pande is there amd Baithakji of Shree Mahaprabhuji is birrajmman here.
Form the vartha sahitya too we are given to undestand that the Pragatya place of Shreeji bawa is atop Shree Girirajji. Shree Mahaprabhuji when came to Shree Girirajji as per the wishes of Shreeji bawa, he first stopped at the house of Sadhu pande and made enquiries. the rest of the sahitya I suppose everyone knows.
Reply author: Shyamrai
Date: 19 October 2007 18:31:55
Message:
My understanding was the same that Shrinathji was found on top of Shri Giriraj with the whole story of Dhumar going there and the people following her to discover the Hand of Shri Thankorji, but also in Anyor is a mandir called the Gopal Prakatya Sthali Mandir. There are photos of it here http://www.vaisnava.cz/clanek_en.php3?no=186
This place also claims to be where Shrinathji is believed to have been found. With the red tilaks on the Goverdhan Shila as well i'm guessing this is not a gaudiya managed site either.
Reply author: kaminimehta1973
Date: 28 April 2009 21:51:01
Message:
if it is possible can u please any one down load this 2 kirtan in audio format .
girikandara mathi pragat thaya ap shree goverdhannath and
goverdhanvasi savarelal tum bin rahyo na jay
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