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Bhagwat
Entry Level Member
51 Posts
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Posted - 01 October 2007 : 23:08:28
JSK !
What are we fighting for ?
Use of abriviations and who said what, when, in which book ?
Wow !!
Is this what we need to do in 2007 !!??
There is a saying in Guajarati - if dogs are barking at an Elephant, he doesn't go to chase them off !
We can't be bothered to fight the claims of all the idiots who think they are better than us ! Who will we goto court with next ? Muslims and Christians too ?
Yes - we should make sure our version of the Truth is out there for people to google / find / research. But to go to court for that would be an excessive waste of everyone's time and money - and for very little gain. People don't change their views just because of a court judgement ! Kids in playgrounds the world over say, "my mother is better than your mother." That does not mean you try and "prove" such things ! Its too childish to even contemplate !
If you really want to research "facts", look at the court documents of the Mughal era. The case of Gaudiaswas being thrown out of seva reached the Mathura court and when they failed there, later the court of the Raja of the area. It just so happened that Raja Birbal happened to be a Pushti sevak and upheld the rights of Shri Vitthal to do appoint who he chooses as temple servants in his temples. This is all there in the vartas. If anyone wants to look at the archive of the court papers and research them, I am sure they will make an interesting read. There is a vast amount of research in this field if anyone is willing to put time and money into it. Indian history is one of the most well documented in the world. Yet, its the least researched !! Sad, but true.
As to abriviations - please ! If you want to encourage youngsters on to the site, you can't tell them not to use the txt language ! They will be turned off by such suggestions and the site will than be the exclusive reserve of those who insist on communicating in the most formal of terms only ! That is exactly what has made youngsters turn away from our sect in the past - too much formality ! and you now want to introduce that on the web !?!?!
If disrespect was meant, it would have been evident in the writing - I see no such evidence. The vaishnavs, especially the young ones, are asking great questions, lets not discourage them with such frivolous rules. Let Pushti Raas flow from all, in which ever way its convenient for them to communicate it. Don't stiffle it !!
JSK,
Bhagwat
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Shyamrai
Entry Level Member
19 Posts
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Posted - 03 October 2007 : 15:58:40
Thank you for seeing my point off view regarding the youth and the use of abbreviations.
In regards to my original question i also thank you. I feel that we can get somewhere with this topic now. I never realised that the case reached the Mathura court and there is documented history. I understand that some of the things Shri Gokulnathji did are recorded in Agra but didnt realise there was other documentation to support our marg. This should be researched thourghly by vaishnavs and will most definately make for interesting reading. I am going to India in december but only for 12 days so i doubt i will get a chance to go but if there are any vaishnavs on here who could go and investigate for us all and get copies of texts it would be much appreciated.
As for taking ISCKON to court....true...very unrealistic but we should put our side across more and make it more readily available.
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Bhagwat
Entry Level Member
51 Posts
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Posted - 03 October 2007 : 20:17:55
JSK,
If you read the 84 Vaishnav and 252 Vaishnav vartas openly, and analyse them rationally / independently, you would be truly be fascinated by the social and political dynamics of the times. There are references to court cases, legal challenges, land grants, royal proclamations etc. All of these can be verified by primary sources.
India at the time of Shri Vallabh was in a flux and things were changing rapidly. During Shri GopiNathji's times, things began to calm down and during Shri Vitthalnathji's time, there was a great flowering of culture under the Mogul emperor Akber. The lives of vaishnavs in the vartas reflects these changing times. Most of these facts can be established independently as they specify names, places of people in the vartas. Court chronicals, land registry papers, law court papers of the period can verify all these facts for you. Granted, some of these may no longer be available, but, careful research may unearth an amazing amount of info.
As you are going to India, take the opportunity to research about your own family and what it was doing at the time of Shri Vallabh. If you are going to a place like Mathura or Kashi, ask your family priest / panda to see if he can go back to your root and how far. Pandas keep vast records of our ancestors for us and have details such as family members who undertook the pilgrimage at that time, occupation, etc. There would even be a signature or a thumb print of your ancestors along with the records ! Imagine, seeing the thumbprint of your great, great grandfather in person ! There is a BBC series - Who Do You Think You Are - they would die for such records. India has records most nations would envy. Sadly, most are neglected.
From this trip, see if you may discover what your family was doing in the 1500s and when your family came into the Pushti fold, what was the economic situation of your ancestors at various periods when they came to the pilgrimage site and for what purpose (for yatra or pinda or tarpan etc).
Shri GopiNthaji was a great leader of our sect.
Sadly, as his descendants did not succeed in carrying on the sect, the descendants of Shri Vitthalnathji who took over the mantel, have slurred his name where possible have belittled his contribution to the sect. Most of his literary works have been lost due to neglect. SadhanDipika is the only surviving text to have any general circulation.
http://www.geocities.com/pushti_marg/gopinathji.htm
Shri GokulNathji was a great man and his faith was absolute in the Lord. When all other Gosawamis fled Vraj under the tyrant Shah Jahan and Aurangzeb, Shri GokulNathji stayed put. Indeed, his faith and boldness helped save many Hindus in the region. He even debated with the rulers of Dehli and there would be court records of that somewhere.
Indian history is worthy of research - if anyone has the time and money to spare. Sadly, most of these documents gather dust in archives, unseen by any researcher.
Indeed, the court archives of the Rajput and Mogul courts of the time would give you a fascinating picture of what was happening in India in general and Pushti Marg in particular. Much of what we take for granted as culture of Pushti Marg is derived from that time, including clothes, food and jewellery offered to the Lord.
http://www.geocities.com/pushti_marg/raag-b-s.htm
JSK,
B
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govindshah2
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Posted - 04 October 2007 : 09:04:48
Jai Jai ShriGokulesh
Bhagwatji, you had quoted this for ShriDadaji and really it is very much true that ShriDadaji single handedly fought against the a-siddhant And kept the siddhant by saving shrimala-tilak.
quote:
Shri GokulNathji was a great man and his faith was absolute in the Lord. When all other Gosawamis fled Vraj under the tyrant Shah Jahan and Aurangzeb, Shri GokulNathji stayed put. Indeed, his faith and boldness helped save many Hindus in the region. He even debated with the rulers of Dehli and there would be court records of that somewhere.
I will interrupt here. I had made the bold words in red ink, of ur quote. ShriDadaji ShriGokulesh is not was, but even He is today Prakat Biraajman at Shrimad Gokul's Badi baithak of shriGokulnathji in ShriGokulnathji's temple. So pls don't use the past tense for ShriGokulnathji. Moreover He is a great man. NO, He is beyond man, He is Bhagwad Swaroop. So Please if u use any Saptacharya's name, then don't write Man. I know that u r a very learned person, But pls do keep this Vivek that whenever ShriMahaprabhuji, ShriUbhay Prabhucharans-ShriGopinathji, ShriVitthalnathPrabhucharan and the Saptacharyas, they cannot be interpreted as Man, but as Bhagwat swaroops. Yehi tehi tehi yehi kachu naahi sandeeh.......
So this is just for notifying. I think u will accept it in positive sense.
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Bhagwat
Entry Level Member
51 Posts
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Posted - 04 October 2007 : 17:23:09
JSK Govindji,
I understand your sentiments and appreciate your Guru-bhakti.
But, if you want to appeal to the rationally thinking, modern youth, you have to say things as they are. Too much defference and formality turns the youngsters off.
Having been raised in the modern world, they can't take us seriously when we ask them to treat human beings as living God. They feel that's a very illogical and old-fashioned.
Give them rational, logical reasons as to why they should respect that person, and they will. Ask them to respect just because they are born in such a such a family, and they will be turned off immediately.
What would you rather have ? Youngsters on-board - interested in our sect or out of here, getting interested in other sects ? One of the reasons I write the way I do, is to appeal to the youngsters of our community. They are our future vaishnavs.
From Sanskrit, Shri Vallabh and his sons translated our texts to Vrajbhasha. As time required, we translated these to Hindi, Gujarati, Punjabi, Sindhi etc. Now, time demands we translate them to English. Not just litterally, but also figuartively. Just as words, if translated verbatim, from one language to another make no sense due to grammer etc, nor will ideas, if translated verbatim, make sense. You have to put them in modern context for our children to understand them.
Shri Vallabh was brave enough to say, several times, that he was human. We read this even in Shodash Grantha - eg Antah Karan Prabodha - http://www.geocities.com/pushti_marg/antakaran-p.htm
Let us be brave enough to accept him at his word and live in awe of his achievements.
http://www.geocities.com/pushti_marg/my-Shri-Vallabh.htm
Yours, most humbly,
Bhagwat
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Shyamrai
Entry Level Member
19 Posts
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Posted - 04 October 2007 : 17:24:18
I just read a website about Shri Jagatnath Puri. It said that Shri Mathuresh Bawa did Bhagwat katha there and to honour his visit the state museum of Orissa gave him copies of 500 year old documents from their library relating to Shri Gopinathji's visit there. Are there any sevaks off Shri Mathureshji that can find out what the documents said or better yet get a copy. Thank you.
Regarding calling Shri Gokulnathji human and a man...i can see how it can been seen as disrespectful and offensive. But i agree, the youth off today cant relate to men being Gods and you have to talk to them on a certain level in the hope they begin to show an interest in our marg and begin to read our scriptures and develop bhakti for themselves.
I was speaking to a Betiji recently who was very straight forward. She said the only thing that makes her different from everyone else is that she can touch the Swaroop of Shrinathji and do His seva, otherwise she is the same as any other vaishnav. I think this attitude gains a lot of respect from the youth of today.
The youth in Pushtimarg in England especially seem to be very disillusioned with the faith for some reason. Any time any manoraths are done or satsangs held, the young people turn up purely because they have to give their grandmother a lift. This is a very poor state of affairs.
Edited by - Shyamrai on 04 October 2007 18:16:07
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Shyamrai
Entry Level Member
19 Posts
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Posted - 04 October 2007 : 17:46:26
I guess our Tilkiyat Maharajshri has put the record straight and offers a very plausible and scholarly view on the disagreement between the gaudiyas and ourselves.
http://www.nathdwara.in/shree_vithalnathji3.php?PHPSESSID=87628fe562ffd08ebc98c6177c5eb967
I wonder if Bawashri has been seeing our posts ;o)
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shreekant22
PRO - Pushtikul.com / P.E.M. January 2004
1853 Posts
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Posted - 04 October 2007 : 20:01:30
Jai Shree Krishna
In fact to ask the present generation to look at Shree Vallahb vanshaj as God is in itself wrong. I have struggled with this issue myself in trying to make my own children understand the very same notion.
But when made them realise that in them we do not see their physical form but the form of Shree Mahaprabhuji himself, and if made them realize the thrivid forms of anything as explained by Shree Mahaprabhuji himself that of Adhibhautik, adhyatmik and adhidaivik, then the children themselves develop reverence towards the Vallabhkul balaks.
In trying to justify that JSK, SM, SV, SG etc. as the need of the hour and that is this is not accepted, then the present generation will not come in to the fold of Pushtimarg as an argument is very difficult to digest. What else will we dilute - we have already started rampantly building havelis, sacrificing Gruha seva, We have already stopped putting Tilak on our foreheads - A sign for which Shree Gokulnathji traveled at age of 75 to kashmir to meet the Emperor, We hurriedly today take brahmasamband, commiting our everything to Shree Prabhu and then conveniently forget the act, and shamelessly lead ourlives indulging in Anyashray, asamarpit, ashadlaap and duhsang, and many many more acts.
What all will we change to suit our own needs and lifestyles?
Shree Mahaprabhuji when he said that he is human, showed his greatness by saying so. But we as Vaishnavs will we start calling him a man ?
Is this what we have learnt from the Sarvoattam stotra ?
This our sad state today.
We our looking at personal conveniences, personal reactions, and what will appeal to the followers of this marg.
Is this Pushtimarg then ?
To the best of my knowledge, There is only one thought that true follower of Pushtimarg should have that of Shree Thakorji, and in doing so, (it is needless to say that Shree Vallabh and the entire Vallabhkul becomes a part of this thought as without their grace, one cannot make his first move in his efforts to seek Shree Thakorjis Anugraha) he sould always and for ever think only of the sukh of Shree Prabhu and nothing else, not his own conveniences.
Teaching our Youger generations to respect the Vallabhkul by always refering to them in Proper form is one such step towards this.
If not the day is not far off when the Shree Govardhannathji will becmore SGN. and one can imagine the two letter representations that may be given to the sapthaswaroopas.
Remember, Pushtimarg is not a book of chemistry and the Vallabhkul not mere elements like Copper (Cu), Pottassium (P), etc. etc.
If the Shodashgranthas, 84 / 252 vartahs are reprsent and highlight the Siddhants of the Marg, then the Valabhkul represent the veary form of Shree Mahaprabhuji himself. If we are unable to realise their Aadhidaivik swaroopa then the fault is in us, in the very same manner as we are unable to feel and experience the Nitya leelas of Shree Thakurji. If today the swaroopa biraajmaan at our homes does not talk or play with us it doea not mean that the Thakorji is non-existant, it only means we do not have the ability to experience his presence.
If today the younger generation is not knowing/following the finer nuances of the marg, then let us make them understand the same and make them follow it, rather than diluting the essentials for the sake of convenience.
Please Please Please, I appeal to all of you with folded hands to stop this nonsense of JSK, SV, etc, and be proud enough to repectfully use Jai Shree Krishna, Shree Mahaprabhuji, Pramadayal Shree Gusainji, and so on.
This is my humble request to all of you.
Jai Shree Krishna
Shree Vallabha dheesh ki jai
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Bhagwat
Entry Level Member
51 Posts
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Posted - 04 October 2007 : 22:36:56
Jai Shri Krushna,
Sure, we can enforce it that the messages can not have any abbriviations.
We can even enforce that due honorific titles and formalities are adhered to in full, with reference to Vallabh-kul and blalaks, in all communications on this site.
What will happen is, youngsters will stop writing on the site !
What difference does it make if I say JSK or Jai Shri Krushna in full in the virtual world of internet ? Is the message any less important because of the abbreviation ? Do I not read "Jai Shri Krushna" in JSK ? If I have to type out every world correctly, it will take me lot longer to communicate and the youngsters of today are unwilling to do that. They want to communicate with speed. Their emails and text messages show this all the time !
Personally, there are bigger battle to be fought than on use of JSK or "Jai Shri Krushna". We have to make sure our children appreciate and understand our religion and philosophy. How is not half as important as NOW ! This is especially true in UK, USA, Africa but also in all the big cities of India where the kids have little or no affinity for Hinduism or its culture. If we want to keep them interested, we have to talk their language, otherwise, our voices will be lost in cyber space.
Indeed, it is through the medium of the internet that vaishnavs around the world can communicate so speedily and I have the pleasure of talking to you all ! If we put restrictions on these, we will loose what lucidity we have on-line.
We can stop people writing in specific formats.
But we can't stop time.
Things are changing and the way people communicate is one the primary changes.
You can't stop children from communicating the way they do. By introducing rules, you will end up restricting their access to sites like this. In my humble view, that would be a disaster for the sect.
As moderators of the site, you decide, but, if you decide to be orthodox, and strict on such rules, you will loose the youngsters you have at present.
Yours,
B
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shreekant22
PRO - Pushtikul.com / P.E.M. January 2004
1853 Posts
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Posted - 05 October 2007 : 09:09:06
Jai Shree Krishna
It is important as to how one percieves it.
These are not restrictions. These are the needs. And this fact ought to be highlighted to the younger generations, and I am sure that they will definetly follow it if explained and made to realise this fact.
If the younger generation today is not into teh fold of Pushtimarg, or the Sanatan Hindu dharma for that matter, it is because we have not got them into doing so. The need for Satsang at every home on a day to day basis is not practised at all. We are failing in inculcating the enlightening the younger generatons about the Marg and its principles - and one of the simple reason for that is we ourselves do not follow them, so how can we preach that which we do not practice ?
The need of the our is not abreviations - the need of the our is a sincere attempt in understanding the basics of the marg, its siddhant first by ourselves, and then to pass on the same in its right perspective to the next generation. To do this we have to change ourselves fist, instead living with the single ome point programme of wealth amassing and living a life of leasure, we have first balance our own lives, put the breaks on, analyse if this what was/is preached by our Acharya? Is this the Gopi bhaav ?
If we start living a balanced life of Seva, smaran and sampatti, then our children too will understand the same and follow it.
Time is running out in this world. But the world we are trying to reach out to is Nitya, beyond time itself. So do not let time fool you, and drag you with it - If our dhrudta is unflinching, then Shree Thakorji will relieave us of this so called time bound living and bless us with experiences that are beyond the limits of time.
My humble request to all the members of the site is to avoid the use of abreviations atleast while refering to Shree Thakorji, Shree Mahaprabhuji and his lineage.
This not being orthadox, this a reflection of our humbleness to them. one of very first pre-requisites of this marg is humbleness...
Agar hum jhuk nahi sakthe to hame Charankamal dikh nahi sakthe.
Jab Charankamal ke darshan nahi to daas ki daasavta kahan rahi ?
Hope my beloved friends of this site will accept this humble request and adhere to it.
Please do remember, this is not a rule being imposed at pushtikul.com but a sincere request to one and all to frame this simple self-made rule upon one-self and adhere to it.
We can keep arguing about it. But the point here is that can we or can we not ?
My simple request is....
If we can, then why not ?
Shree Vallabha dheesh ki jai
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